The Fifth Business
The Fifth Business is the first in the Deptford Trilogy, and yes, probably the first book that anyone thinks of when they refer to Robertson Davies. Is it his best book? I don’t know. I think I prefer the Cornish Trilogy (maybe because of the major female character?). But we’ll start here.
Penguin has a reading guide, with some interesting questions.
So, we’re reading this book. Let’s let discussion happen in the comments section below, and see what happens. (Why not use a forum site? For now, this is one login less. And a dialogue, no structure necessary.)
I like this question about mothers from the Penguin Reading guide: “Young Dunstable’s flight from his mother colors the rest of his life. When he contemplates his relationship with Diana, his first lover, he shuns the motherly quality of her affection: “I had no intention of being anyone’s dear laddie, ever again.” How and why do the other men in the novel (Boy Staunton, Paul Dempster) flee their mothers? What are they seeking in a woman? How are the ideal and the reality of motherhood and womanhood conveyed in Ramsay’s reflections on the virgin Mary?”
There’s a lot in this book (I just finished reading it this morning) about women, and mothers in particular. The women are such stereotypes — you’re always conscious of Dunstan as narrator, writing these descriptions for his Headmaster’s benefit…as if he’s trying to place them in a context that his ‘public’ will understand, because he understands them on a mythic level.
Comment by loricat | March 4, 2007
I just got my new copy from Amazon the other day and have started rereading it … interesting reading this with Dunny’s relationship to his mother in mind.
I’ve always felt that Davies’ women were never as complex and satisfying as his male characters.
Someone I once knew back in Toronto was actually one of RD’s students when she was at university. She told me that Davies was an insufferable snob and a total chauvinist, possibly even a misogynist … meanwhile, she was one of those rather fervent and humourless staunch feminist types whose opinions of men I’ve never quite trusted.
Comment by azahar | March 9, 2007
I’m sure RD was a product of his time in many ways — with a lot of the assumptions of the day, mixed in with his broader understanding, that he clearly has in his books. A ‘fervent and humourless’ feminist would probably easily take umbrage with him…but a more mellowed feminist would just take his entrenched attitudes with a grain of salt, and revel in his mind.
About his female characters — have you ever read the Cornish trilogy? Or Salterton? Some good female characters there — much more richly described than the women in Deptford — except for Liesl of course, but then she’s a brilliant grotesque in so many ways. Makes me think he’s creating his own ideal woman-friend in her.
I think one of the points of the Deptford books is that all the women are described from the point of view of the male narrators, and this is a very deeply Jungian series. In Fifth Business, we Dunstan’s p.o.v. on all the women — with his archetypes projected onto them.
Comment by loricat | March 9, 2007
Yeah, I’ve read all the trilogies - Maria in Cornish is definitely his most well-rounded female character, but she still pales next to, say, Simon in terms of depth and understanding, don’t you think?
Quite agree with you about Liesl.
Comment by azahar | March 9, 2007
I finished up the Deptford trilogy not too long ago, and have recently been reading “The Merry Heart”, a postumous collection of Davies’ bibliophile essays and lectures. For some insight into the writing of “Fifth Business”, you guys might want to check that one out, as the success of the first Deptford novel seems to have been very much on Davies mind any time he spoke in a public venue.
In reference to the discussion of Davies’ female characters, he also routinely brings up the question of whether or not a writer of one sex can competantly write a character of the opposite sex. He site George Eliot as a woman who wrote men well, and Flaubert’s comment, “Madame Bovary, c’est moi,” as an explanation of how Bovary ended up being such a well written character. So if Davies’ female characters are more two-dimensional than his men — and that’s an if that I can only judge by the Deptford trilogy, which is, of course, narrated by a string of women-bedevilled men — the explanation we can derive from Davies’ own writing might be something along the lines of, those two dimensions are the only thing he, as the author, could identify with in women.
I wish I had my copy of “Fifth Business” with me so I could make sure of the name, but maybe the most compelling female character in the trilogy isn’t Liesl — urbane, yes, but she doesn’t do much to drive the plot or the reader’s emotions — but Boy’s second wife Denyse. She’s second rate Lady MacBeth, really, but her shabiness as a foil is part of what makes her believable as a person.
Comment by MadArchitect | March 9, 2007
Hey! Hi Mad, good to have you drop by!
About Liesl. In a lot of ways, she reminds me of late Heinlein characters — have you read his later stuff? He was getting a bit dotty, and wrote some real extended fantasy stuff. His one character, Lazarus Long, was just utter perfection of body, mind, spirit — 1,000s of years old, perfect genetics, perfect open love life, perfect adventures…one ageing author’s fantasy of the potential of human existance.
That’s what Liesl is, I think. RD’s fantasy of what a human being could be, if given the chance: extremely well-read, mentally exacting, psychologically ‘individualized’ (to use the Jungian term), artistically-gifted (if not in actual craft, but in appreciation), utterly content with herself, physically and socially (having overcome some major challenges), and to top it all off (or is this the root of it?), lots of money.
On another note — I’ve got almost all of his essays/speeches/writings…even some of his plays. Love his non-fiction stuff.
Oh, almost forgot — I read somewhere that supposedly the three books of the Deptford Trilogy were edited in 3 different styles: Canadian, US, British/International. And I did forget — I just breezed through the 3 again, and didn’t think to look. Argh.
Comment by loricat | March 9, 2007
So glad you didn’t wait for me to get started! This will be fun. Can I really toss aside the other books I’m still reading to pick up one I’ve already read (though 20 years ago?) in order to participate in the conversation? I surely think so! Thanks, Lori, for getting this together. Back shortly with my first comments. (Talk amongst yourselves.)
Comment by davidbdale | March 14, 2007
Okay, just finished yesterday. I can’t remember how many times this makes, or when the last time was. But it was a lovely experience, like going to visit an old friend. I’m sure you all know that one.
Hello MadArchitect and davidbale - nice to meet you.
So okay, my general feeling while rereading the book was my sheer admiration of RD’s storytelling ability as well as of the constant sparkling prose, full of wit and wonderful turns of phrase.
I’m now thinking a bit about this whole ‘mother thing’ you mentioned, Lori. I think that Dunny’s mother actually represents social hypocrisy, or perhaps the social burden of feeling one has to do ‘what is right’ and deny one’s inner passions. Yet the passions will always rise to the surface when one isn’t concerned about ’saving face’. The father is portrayed as both strong in personal conviction at his job but a weakling in terms of ‘domestic politics’. Again, the focus of blame is placed on the mother for being overly demanding … why not on the father for being overly passive?
The Liesl character is a very complex yet still rather two-dimensional one. But isn’t this usually the case when books are written in the first person?
Another character I adored was Padre Blazon, adding much wisdom and basic knowledge to the story in such a witty and entertaining manner that you almost don’t notice being lectured to.
It’s een said that Dunstan Ramsay was the character closest to RD’s heart - and possibly closest to his own personality.
Comment by azahar | March 16, 2007
Liesl in this book is two-dimensional, I was really thinking of the series as a whole.
I like your take on Dunstan’s mother, Azahar. Let’s look at Mary Dempster — not ’strong’ (what does that mean?) on the domestic, nor social, fronts. “Simple” she’s called. Describing her today, I’d say more like ‘flighty’ — but enough to have her committed? What came first, the inability to function, or having the ability to function taken away from her (by being first over-protected, then tied up, then…
So, another question from the Penguin reading guide is a good one right here:
“”If you think her a saint, she is a saint to you,” says Padre Blazon of Ramsay’s fascination with Mary Dempster. What place does she come to occupy in his psychological landscape? Why is he so possessive of her, refusing to ask for Boy’s assistance for her care?”
Comment by loricat | March 16, 2007
It’s a popular damn book — every day I’ve got people finding my blog because of The Fifth Business.
Comment by loricat | March 29, 2007
Yeah and I’ve been a damned lazy old so-and-so for not participating more (sorry!).
I’m now rereading World of Wonders - rereading The Manticore was very interesting and timely in terms of what I’m going through in my life atm.
So, got distracted. And I’m a damned lazy so-and-so. Oh, already said that.
What was the question?
Comment by azahar | March 29, 2007
Looks like there ain’t nobody here but us chickens…
Comment by azahar | April 19, 2007
((hums the tune))
That’s not true. I get at least 3 or 4 people a day, looking for our Mr. Davies, and probably cuttin’n'pastin’ our comments for their essays.
Comment by loricat | April 21, 2007
Anyone of you know who can be fifth business in the book fifth business??
like who should be the one that helps carry out the message but is not the main character.
Comment by James | May 12, 2007
I get people searching out this book daily — not many actually pause to ask a question.
So, James, thanks for stopping by. I think your question is a good one, because I think it’s an easy thing to confuse. Dunstan Ramsay may be the central character of his memoirs, but he’s not the central character to the greater story. What’s the greater story? Depends on your point of view. In mine, it’s the sum total of all three books. In Fifth Business, we are introduced to our Fifth Business (which, by the way, is a concept out of Robertson Davies’ head), and we read this one man’s account of himself. As a main character, does he change much? No. We’re getting Dunstan’s autobiography, written to his headmaster on the occasion of his retirement. He’s annoyed that what he sees as his great adventure was downplayed by the public write-up in the paper.
But all he’s really doing, in a simple sense, in that autobiography, is tying himself to the bigger events around him, and to the life and death of Boy Staunton, and to Magnus Eisengrim, and even Liesl — all more colourful characters than our staunch Canadian boy Dunstan.
And James, before you cut’n'paste this response for your school essay…I’m probably all full of shit. :p
Comment by loricat | May 13, 2007
From the intro to Fifth Business:
Which is to say that all Heroes and Heroines in a story need someone solid to ‘bounce off’ in a sense, giving these larger than life characters a solid base to work from. Which in this novel is represented by Dunstan Ramsay, with his two no-nonsense feet (one real, one wooden) planted firmly on the ground. Ramsay makes sure that the other more colouful characters don’t run away with the story being told.
Comment by azahar | May 20, 2007
Oops, sorry about the typos - typing one-handed these days …
Comment by azahar | May 20, 2007
‘run away with the story’ — how true. He’s there for us, grounding their flights of fancy.
It’s a great concept, the Fifth Business — and I like the fact that the ‘was often referred to’ sh*t was all made up.
Comment by loricat | May 22, 2007
I’m an adult student learning about the world and human nature through any means necessary. May I respectfully first say that not all students take the easy way out by pasting other peoples ideas and comments but learn and create their own concept using the insight and wisdom from others. I have an exam on Fifth Business (where we’ll be comparing it to The Outsider) and wish to gain knowledge about the roles all the other characters play. Dunstan is fifth business, however I’m having great difficulty dissecting the others. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you so much, your banter has been very helpful and has given me more confidence:):):)
Comment by Dani | June 1, 2007
Dani, thanks for the comment. You’re right of course, I used the word ’student’ rather loosely…I meant “lazy students who would rather find the answer on the Internet than think for themselves”.
It’s been years, eons even, since I read the Outsider. ((Pause, while I read the Wikipedia version of events.))
Compare Fifth Business to the Outsiders?! Wacky. There’s a suicide, male friendship…There are elements of Ramsay in Ponyboy — feelings of responsibility & guilt for actions that were not his fault just because he witnessed them, being narrator of the story of a group of childhood friends/acquaintances…The girl being interested in the Greaser, but staying with the Soc…
Az, help us with this. Let’s dissect our characters a bit more, with the help of this question from the Penguin Reading Guide:
If Ramsay is truly “Fifth Business,” as Liesl describes, who are the hero and heroine, sorceress, and villain of the story? Do they correspond to the “usual cabal” described at the book’s conclusion? Who are “the Basso and the Brazen Head” Liesl refers to in her letter? Who was the woman Boy knew and the woman he didn’t know?
If the Hero and the Heroine are those that do something heroic, then who are they? Is Paul the Hero because he pulls himself out of his awful life and makes something of himself? Boy is the hero of his own story — is he the Hero of ours? Or is he the Villain? Is Liesl the Sorceress or the Heroine, or neither? What about Mary Dempster?
Personally, I think that little bit of doggerel was all Davies being showy for Liesl’s character, who likes to be mysterious, and it was also him playing around with us, the readers…and test-writing English educators the world over, given them something to torture students with!
Comment by loricat | June 1, 2007
This’ll require some thinking … perhaps best left until I get back from Lisbon.
Comment by azahar | June 3, 2007
Fabulously fantastic! I think I got it firured out. Paul is the hero, Mrs D is the heroine, Boy is the villan, and Liesl is the confidante. However, I LOVE comparing them to themselves within relativity to their own lives. Now if I could only stop panicing for one minute and remeber Mrs D’s third miricle. Willie was the first, then the Madonna………..see PANIC!!!!
Comment by Dani | June 5, 2007
Dani, I don’t know if Davies really meant to be so clear-cut, but if it makes sense to you, and you can argue it convincingly, then you’re in.
The third miracle? Off-hand, I can’t remember. Az? Are you back yet?
Comment by loricat | June 5, 2007
You’re right..nothing is clear cut with D. i Think I can make an effort at it…and the third miracle was turning the tramp to God! Thank goodness for technology!!!! And thanks for your help!!!!!!!!!
Comment by Dani | June 6, 2007
I’m just trying to sort out the ending now. I’m stumped on who Liesl is referring to in her letter to D at the end when she says: “join the Basso and the Brazen head. We shall have some high old times before The Five make an end of us all.” Any thoughts??
Comment by Dani | June 6, 2007
Dani — it’s funny…when you wrote “Willie was the first” I thought that was the bum. Blanked on the brother. Ah well.
I would say the ‘Basso and the Brazen Head’ are Eisengrim and herself. I think Liesl actually says at some point (it might be in the 2nd book, The Manticore, where she meets David, Boy’s son) that she was just pulling words out of her hat for the showmanship. The Five would be the makers of the story — the idea being (this is me just pulling a theory out of my hat!) that finding yourself saddled with an archetype in a story, realizing that you are one of the Five (male & female heros, male & female villains, and the Fifth Business of course
) would probably make you want & need some ‘high old times’.
Reminds me actually of Lois McMaster Bujold’s book The Curse of Chalion — where the main character finds himself being, well, ridden by a god…he and another ’saint’ find solace in getting pissed together.
Comment by loricat | June 6, 2007
Since Leisl refers to Paul as the “basso” at the end of the novel, I always thought she was suggesting that he was the villian (I think it says somewhere that the villian is usually portrayed by a bass). But then, before that, she says that the Fifth Business “knows the secret of the hero’s birth,” which would suggest that Paul is the hero. I’m not sure which is which, and I don’t think there is necessarily a correct answer.
As for the others, though, I’m almost certain Mrs. Dempster is the heroine–Davies adds tiny little hints everywhere, like when Leisl describes the heroine as “often a fool.” Leisl is probably the confidante or sorceress (it seems that the two positions are interchangeable). Based on Davie’s Jungian philosophy, I’d say she is meant to represent Ramsay’s shadow; Davies often hints that she is the devil (like when Ramsay twists her nose), and the devil and the shadow are essentially interchangeable. I’m not sure how this fits into the opera structure, though.
Comment by Lawrence | August 12, 2007
Hello Lori, Azahar.
I’ve just finished reading the book for the third time, and I tried to focus on the women in the novel this time around. Mrs. Dempster really stood out for me; she was a driving force in Dunstan’s life and it’s astounding how influential she is. if my memory serves me right, she played a role in his joining the army, as well as his somewhat career shift into the study of saints. Overall, what is her role in the novel? It’s difficult for me to put into words because I understand it when I look at the big picture. Her character was “simple,” but most certainly effective.
Comment by Yosra | October 27, 2007
Yosra — thanks for stopping by.
Mrs. Dempster role…in the simplest terms? Dunstan’s muse? His anima? She is the female that defines/filters how he perceives every other female in his life. Davies was very much into Jungian psychology…
Az? Care to take a stab at this?
Comment by loricat | October 27, 2007
Is she much of a mother figure to Dunstan? I’m perplexed by his loyalty to Mrs. Dempster throughout the years. It’s definitely his guilt driving him. It saddens me to see her as an outcast, especially after the incident with the tramp. Her position in the town seems like a trivial one that is mostly good for gossip and such.
I don’t think it’s fair to characterize her role in the simplest terms :P.
Comment by Yosra | October 27, 2007
I’m also wondering about Mrs. Dempster’s effect on the male characters in the novel (more specifically, Paul, Boy, and Dunstan).
Her effect on Dunstan is obvious; but what about Paul and Boy? You could argue that the snowball incident bothered him all his life even though he does not admit it and he tries to rid himself of this guilt by helping Dunstan with financial matters. Why else would he help Dunny? =/
As for Paul, I guess he blames her for the way he’s ridiculed in the town and at school. He sees her as a disgrace to his family, and he is ashamed of her. Does Mary Dempster affect Paul’s relationships with women? If so, how? The novel doesn’t mention much about Paul and his relationships, but does he somehow become emotionally detached from the women in his life?
My brain hurts O.o
Comment by Yosra | October 28, 2007
Boy is such a subtle character — we see him only through Dunstan’s eyes, so he’s not very multi-dimensional. Dunstan remembers the incident with the snowball, because he was the intended victim, and he was right there when Mrs. Dempster was hit. We know Dunstan is a thinker, a romantic, an academic, an analyzer…it is clear that he’ll be thinking of the incident for the rest of his life.
But Boy — in that scene, isn’t he just (’just’ used cautiously) a normal (’normal’ ditto! :)) boy, a bit of a bully, throwing a snowball at another boy that may or may not have a rock in it — in his memory?
Is Davies making a point here about memory? Memories of an event are not fixed — do we have any indication at all that Boy remembers the rock at any time, other than when he’s confronted with it that night he dies? To Boy, Mrs. Dempster is the crazy woman that Dunstan’s obsessed over.
And I’m going to wimp out a little with Paul — here’s a little boy that goes from a mother who was tied up in the house (weirdness in itself), to the life on the carnival. When, if ever, did he meet a ‘normal’ (there’s that word again!) woman? He knew Dunstan’s mother, a bit, that old busybody… Really, in the end, probably the only woman who he could handle would be someone just like Liesl — individual and nutty in her own way.
Again, just my thoughts.
Cheers.
Comment by loricat | November 2, 2007
Hi,
I’m a highschool student about to write a 40000 word essay on the Deptford Trilogy. I’m choosing to write about it because Fifth Business was so inspirational. Halfway through the Manticore. I will probably focus in on the theme of the unlived life as well as that of trying to escape one’s past (holding on vs. letting go).
Anyways it’s great to see this site! I was excited today when I read in the Manticore (pg 77) Dr. Von Haller’s comments on one’s Shadow. She says that “we are not working to banish your shadow, you see, but understand it” as well as “you must recognize him” and “he is not a terrible fellow if you know him.” This seemed a complete reiteration of Leisl’s point in Fifth Business when she tells Dunstan to shake hands with his personal devil. It seems as if Davies pushes a theme of personal balance in his books. That one must acknowledge and get to know thier “bad side” so to speak, in order to live life to it’s fullest and find themselves.
Comment by Katie | November 11, 2007
Yorsa,
In terms of Paul Dempster and Mary’s effect on him it has been profound. I mean, living with Mary, Paul was bullied and he had no mother to protect him growing up. He felt and was portrayed by Dunstan, as very weak. I think that he resented his mother and the emotional pain/stress she caused him so much that he completely reinvented himself even to the point of changing his name to Magnus Eisengrim. Paul not only changed his name though, but he completely became Magnus Eisengrim who was the exact opposite of tiny, weak Paul who had no control or structure in his life. Magnus was graceful, strong and almost superhuman as an illusionist.
In terms of Paul’s relationships with women, Mary could have effected them for sure. Mary was a pitied, simple, weak women in the end. Paul associates himself with Faustina and Leisl at the end of the book, two women who are polar opposites of Mary. Faustina is a “woman of the earth” (I tihnk Leisl calls her that.) Leisl, as we know is intelligent, sturdy and wise. Emotional detachment with Paul? Well his relationships with women as you know are never discussed in detail yet I think Dunstan mentions he and Faustina share a room in FB.
Mary’s effect on Boy? Well, who knows. I mean, Boy denies remembering the snowball incident at the end of FB or who Mary and Paul were. I think that Boy felt guilty about the snowball incident yet delt with it entirely differently. Boy tried to shrug of his guilt while Dunstan dramatically consumed himself with it. There are some definite similarities between Mary and Leola. Both seem to lose themselves and thier minds. Boy knew he threw that snowball. Boy knew it hit Mary Dempster. Perhaps the fact that he claims he didn’t feel all that guilty hints at his views towards women; that his actions with them have consequences he doesn’t need to accept.
Comment by Katie | November 11, 2007
Katie, Thanks for joining in.
The personal balance, and being aware of (or on speaking terms with) your shadow are very much part of Jungian psychology — and Dr. Von Haller is Jungian of course. [A great, readable intro to Jungian analysis is "Boundaries of the Soul" by June Singer -- I highly recommend it.]
Have fun with your essay — and if you like the first two books of the trilogy, hold on to your hat when you dive into the third!!
Comment by loricat | November 11, 2007
[...] Robertson Davies, again I’m not a hit hound by any means, but I do check them, just to see. And the most popular page on this blog is the space where we were discussing The Fifth Business. [...]
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hey!
i just wanted to say i LOVED Fifth Business, i had to read it for school. I happen to come to this site for help, and it is great!! (no copy and pasteing!! just a helpful development of ideas!!) lol Thanks!!
Comment by L | March 24, 2008
Thanks “L” — what a nice thing to say: ‘development of ideas’.
Comment by loricat | March 24, 2008
Anyone still visiting this forum? I have a couple of questions/observations: one - Paul was born tiny and covered with long hair - almost a wild beast kind of creature, a bear perhaps - a sign that he will be a mythical figure in the story? And why the egg shaped rock in Boy’s mouth at the end? The only other egg in the story is the one Dunstable steals from the kitchen at home, which brings about the break with his mother. Two eggs, two breaks…
Comment by Jacquie | May 18, 2008
Thanks Jacquie, for raising these issues. The one about Paul born with long hair = mythical figure is interesting. I’ve never thought about that one. Didn’t Dunstan pursue stories etc. of the bearded woman, Saint something-or-other? There could be a theme there of mysticism and unnatural hair.
The egg-shaped rock in Boy’s mouth at the end is the question to end all questions — the rock is from Dunstan’s desk, that he had kept all those years, as it was the rock that Boy had put in the snowball that started the whole story. Dunstan confronted Boy with it, with Paul in the room…then discovered it gone. Did Paul take it (Did Paul kill Boy?)? Or did Boy take it (Did Boy commit suicide?)?
But the significance of the egg-shape…tied to that egg that Dunstan stole as a child? Good question. (Too tired to speculate tonight…
Comment by loricat | May 18, 2008
hey! i just finished reading 5th business and loved it! what a great novel.
Does anyone have any ideas regarding the inhabitants in the village of deptford and how they could be depicted?
Comment by JJ | May 20, 2008
JJ — Don’t forget to read the rest of the trilogy, now that you’re hooked!
The inhabitants of Deptford? The town is modeled after a specific one in Ontario, the name of which escapes me at this moment. But it really is Everytown, Ontario, Canada.
Comment by loricat | May 20, 2008
The town is modeled after Thamesville, I believe.
Comment by Shelly | June 26, 2008
Hi Shelly — welcome! You are probably right. (I could also go downstairs to my library and look it up in one of his essays, or the biography…
So, are you a big fan of Mr. Davies? Or just of this book?
Comment by loricat | June 26, 2008